Nowadays, more and more companies are sourcing their online content from content created by their customers. User-generated content has become the lifeblood of online and digital marketing because besides being miles more affordable, who else would you believe about a certain product besides other people who’ve bought the product? Chris Meade is the Co-Founder and Chief Revenue Officer of the game CROSSNET. Jared Orton speaks to Chris about the beginning of their business, and how they made it big by sourcing user-generated content. Have you begun tapping into the wealth of user-generated content out there for you to use?
Listen to the podcast here:
Winning With User-Generated Content With Chris Meade
We’ve got an inventor, someone who invented something, which is cool to talk to someone who put pen to paper and said, “I’m going to create something. I’m going to put it out there. I’m going to sell it. People are going to like it.” That person is Chris Meade. Chris is the Cofounder of a game called CROSSNET. It’s an outdoor game. It is interesting and fun. As he said, the simple way to describe it is four square meets volleyball in an outdoor setting. The most powerful thing that he’s going to share is the power of user-generated content. That’s the entire conversation of what we have over and over again is how do we get our fans to do our marketing for us?
They’ve put all their emphasis on developing this user-generated content. He tells a funny story about some volleyball player in Latvia got wind of this new game that they were playing. All of a sudden, they wanted to play the game. They started creating videos and they started using that in their marketing. That has been their most powerful form of pushing this message out is showing their fans what the user-generated content having fun using that product. Here’s my conversation with Chris Meade and CROSSNET.
Chris, what’s going on? Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for having me.
You’re in beautiful Miami. I went to Miami a few years ago. Someone who hasn’t been to Miami before, what do they have to do besides go to the overpriced $19 drink, the main boardwalk there, whatever that place is called. What’s the unknown thing to do in Miami?
I love Wynwood. It’s right our district. It’s cheap as long as you’re not taking out your credit card, but there are tons of cool stuff to look at and interact with for affordable prices.
I did the spray painting and stuff there. There’s the guitar place that’s in that area. That’s a cool spot. You’re by yourself in Miami and we’re going to get into your backstory and all that. You guys are running this business. You’re running this company. You created it a couple of years ago. You guys are by yourself. You’re running a three-person company. Talk a little bit about that, running a three-person company and no employees. What do you do every single day? Are you doing everything? Are you doing nothing?
We do have a lot of freelancers for various projects, but it’s the three core founders. I run the sales and marketing team. My brother is the CEO of the company. He does social media, hiring, all the business legal stuff. My other partner, Mike, does all the manufacturing, customer service and making sure that the orders are coming in and coming out.
This has been a 2 or 3-year project and you guys had legit jobs. You were doing things like everyone else was supposed to do. Before we get into the actual game because I couldn’t even explain to people what the actual game was, go to the backstory of you, your brother and your partner. Talk about where you guys were at coming out of college before you said, “We’ve got to do something different. We’ve got to create something that people would enjoy.”
I was 24 at the time. Greg and Mike, they’re in the same grade growing up so they’re both 22. I’m two years older. I had graduated from college a few years earlier. I tried to have a career in film. I went to school for film. I was working at HBO for a little bit, making the worst money ever. I couldn’t pay my loans. I got a job in sales, which took me to software sales. I started working at Uber at the headquarters in New York. I’m happy there and making good money. I’m working for a cool company. One day Mike came over and he was like, “I want to come up with something. Let’s sit on the couch while ESPN is going and let’s brainstorm ideas.” Four-way volleyball was talked about.
Is this something that you guys had played before by yourselves or you were like, “We’re watching this. Is this something?” Talk us through that ideation of how you started envisioning this thing coming together as you’re on your couch watching it.
He came over and he was like, “Let’s write down 100 ideas and let’s not leave until we have one good idea.” We kept writing and four-way volleyball was one of the ideas. We googled it and there’s nothing on the internet for it. Nobody had ever made it.Write down up to a hundred ideas, and don't leave until you have one good idea. Click To Tweet
It’s an absolute miracle. I feel like every time you’re sitting around with your buddies and you come up with an idea, you’re like, “This is it.” You plug it in and you’re like, “A hundred people have done it already.” Are you guys naturally idea guys? Had you all had ideas before? You’re saying writing down 100 ideas. Did you have ideas in the past?
I like to think so. I ran my own film company. We were always flipping things on eBay, buying video games and selling them. We are always like hustlers trying to make money. We grew up in a super small farm town where there wasn’t a lot to do. We’re always trying to be innovative and try to make money any way we could.
Tell people what exactly is four-way volleyball. I know on your site it’s volleyball meets four square.
It’s a four-way volleyball net. There’s one box for each person. It’s an elimination-style game to eleven, won by two. You have four squares. One person serves it across. They’re designated as the four squares. They’re number four. If you stay alive when you serve it, you get one point. Everyone’s trying to get out the person who serves the ball or has the most amount of points.
Were those the original rules or have you guys adapted them since then?
We incorporated four square, which is a childhood game on the blacktop. We pretty much put it in the air and put a volleyball net around it. In traditional four square, you didn’t have points that you go up to. It’s just to survive. We incorporated a point system based around our favorite game of basketball, game to eleven, won by two.
Take us through the next step. Did you tape together two volleyball nets and you were like, “Let’s try this out on our own?” You didn’t create it and put it out for sale.
That’s exactly what happened. We went to Walmart the next day, bought two crappy volleyball nets, tied them up on the side of my shed and the side of my garden and had our friends over. We made up the rules on the spot. We’re like, “This seems logical.” If you serve the ball, you could get the point and nobody has to get the point. We tested out the rules that day. We locked them in probably within the first day. We had our friends over and we played for hours. There’s nothing else to do besides getting this manufactured and let’s get cranking on it.
What’s interesting here is you guys created something that you enjoyed. A lot of times we’re out there trying to figure out what’s that next hot thing? What are other people wanting? You guys created something that you enjoy. Am I right in that?
It’s a cool feeling going to the beach, playing your own product and having fun with it.
You said you brought friends over. What was the initial response? Was that like, “We’re beta testing this. What do our friends say?” What was that initial response from them?
Everyone had a great time. I remember when the game would get to eleven, we’d look at our friends and we were like, “Do we want to play another game?” They were like, “Yeah, we want to play again.” Everyone was having fun and voluntarily playing. It wasn’t like a chore.
Out of curiosity, how long does a game take?
It’s anywhere from 10 to 15 minutes.
That’s probably the beauty of, “Let’s do it again.” You feel like, “Let’s figure out how to get this manufactured.” I’ve never had anything manufactured. Where do you even start with something like that?
We found the sporting goods manufacturers on Alibaba. I reached out to them and said, “Do you have experience building volleyball nets?” I hammered down the top three choices. We decided who was giving us the best quotes, prices and all that.
What’s that time frame? You came up with the idea, played it and started manufacturing. Was this a 6-month deal, an 8-month deal? How long is this taking?
If I look back at it, probably about four months to get our first prototype. We send them over to the blueprint that we were lucky to have an engineer on our side to create. They’d have to get sourced for the parts and put together the first one. It takes the longest to put together the first one and manufacture it from scratch. Now we’re on a constant cycle where we order thousands at a time. The first one took about four months until we got it. It was solid. It worked well, but there are improvements that we made based on customer feedback, things we tried to change.
I was going to ask you what the feeling is like getting that first shipment of that one?
It’s cool because then we took it to the beach. We took it to Narragansett Rhode Island Beach where we grew up at. People were looking at it like it was an alien. People were coming up and trying to play. It was great. It’s a cool feeling. We wanted to make it height adjustable right off the jump. We got it. There are little kids that were trying to play. There were big basketball player dudes trying to play. It’s immediately height adjustable. That was our first tweak to the game.
Did you make that tweak before you guys fully went to the market or were you tweaking all the way along?
It was before we went to the market. Even after-market, we’ve made some tweaks like making the game more stable with the chords, improving the boxing, all that stuff. If it warrants a tweak and if it’s within the budget, we’ll make it happen.
You put it to the marketplace. What were strategies, nasty business-like terms whatever, but what was the concept of like, “Here’s how we’re going to get this out to people.” It’s somewhat confusing. It’s totally different. It’s hard to explain in a box or on a website. How did you start sharing that story with like, “This is this new game and you should try it out?”
We try to dumb it down. As confusing as the game is, it is simple. It’s four square plus volleyball. Games are played to eleven. You only get the point when you serve. Some people do get it but we do still see people using the net for traditional volleyball skills. They’ll use three hits instead of one. I got a video from somebody in quarantine mode playing inside their house. They set it up in their living room. We’re letting people use it how they want. To go back to your question, that initial jump, we figured when we brought the game to the beach, we would have this viral effect where people would come up to us and stare at us all day. We knew that we could get 50 of them out into the world and those 50 users went to their beach. That would be happening too. It was a pyramid effect. Our whole goal is to get those first 50 out. We did most of that through social. We still do a lot on Facebook Ads and all of that. We’ve pushed it. In the beginning, we’d be lucky if we sold two a day. Now, it’s blown up.Build a strong enough customer experience off the jump so they'll come back looking for more. Click To Tweet
It’s a $150 product and that’s a big ask for somebody to see some random ad or something on the internet. You said, “Let’s get 50 of these out there.” Did you go pass them out?
Originally, we sold them for $100. That was before we knew anything about wholesale pricing and having a big margin. They used to cost $100. Granted, it was a far crappier product.
The idea was, “We’ve got to get these out to people so that our customers are out there basically doing the marketing for us.” You want people out there seeing this done, being curious, “What is this game? How do I play it? Yeah, we got it online. We got through this website, whatever we got it from.” Is it video content that people use? You said someone sent you a video, but I have to imagine people are videoing themselves playing this game. Talk a little bit about that.
I remember right when we started in Miami, this group of girls came up and played with us. They’re from West Islip, New York. I remember they bought it. We gave them a discount on the beach. They went home and bought the game. We knew it was them. We would get tags from them every week. We still do probably during summer when it comes up. We started seeing sales from the same city. It was like, “That’s what had to happen.” Why would they randomly be buying from that small little city? It’s mostly going to the beach, doing our work for us.
Do you see more of that? That would be interesting to think about. Our Bananas merchandise, we’ll see some random person buy it in Minnesota or whatever and all of a sudden, it’s like 5 or 10 more orders come in from Minnesota because their friends see it. Do you see that? We got our first order in Savannah, Georgia. All of a sudden, ten more orders pop up in Savannah. Do you see that from time to time?
Yeah, we definitely do. It’s gotten a bit too big for me to count in terms of all that. In the beginning, early days, we’d 100% see that.
Early days, you were 1 to 2 a day. You were trying to get more people to see it. You were trying to get customers to become the marketers for you. Now, you guys are doing like $2.5 million in sales. What did the heck happen?
A lot of things happened. Essentially, what happened was we had a cool influencer for the Olympic volleyball team in Latvia.
How did you guys get in touch with the Olympic volleyball person in Latvia? I need that story. You can’t gloss over that.
They DM’ed us and they were like, “We have a camp out in Latvia. Do you want to send us a net?” We were like, “Pay for shipping. We’ll send it out to you.” We woke up to the craziest ESPN top ten videos of all time. We started monetizing that on Facebook. That video performed a lot better than the video of me playing. That started bringing in the traffic. We started making sure that we’re capping emails as much as possible through that traffic. We’ve built our email list up to 80,000 people at this point. We start to keep growing on that. We got 2 or 3 videos more that were high quality, but we didn’t spend cash on them. It was UGC. We would run ads on demos. The spiking video would go to the kids. The twelve-year-old girl in the backyard playing would go to the moms. They started splitting that up and getting smart about our targeting. That’s when the sales started coming in. We were making money and it wasn’t like we were spending $95 to make a sale.
That user-generated content when it’s us putting out a video of ourselves with our logo, people can see right through that stuff. They can see that it’s a slick video. It’s a promo ad. That stuff is okay. When you get the customers out there sending you videos of your product, your process and saying like, “Here’s what we’re doing. You capture that and keep putting that out to your audience.” It didn’t cost you. You didn’t have any money to create that video. You didn’t have to hire a video editing team. It’s user content, raw, fresh and unique. That’s what keeps going out. Has that continued to be your strategy over and over again?
We got the high-quality video done from an agency, but we spent $600 on it. We’re never spending money on video content ever. I could take out my phone and record it. It’s going to come out. It does the same purpose. Here’s a four-way net. Here are people spiking it and having a good time.
It’s not that video isn’t important. We all know the video is important, but the cost to do it, you don’t need to hire this big firm. You don’t need to hire ten people to come in and do it. We’ve always believed in the video for so long. It’s always how we can pump this out in a new, fresh, unique way, but how do we do it where it’s putting the spotlight on the customers and not, “Look at our cool product. Look at us trying to promote ourselves. How do we keep putting the focus on the customer?” What’s next for you guys? You’ve been in business for a few years. You’ve seen some rapid success. How do you start delivering new things to the customers? I imagine people only buy one of these. Maybe they buy them as a gift or something, but how do you start thinking about what’s next in the customer experience?
Our whole priority is to get as many nets out to the world as possible. We’ve sold 50,000, 60,000 nets in the first few years. There are millions of people out there. We definitely haven’t tapped the market yet. We have released our indoor model. People are now buying the outdoor set and adding the indoor bases to play inside. We’re in about 4,000 gym classes. Teachers are teaching students how to play volleyball. They’re buying those bases to teach inside when it’s cold or during the volleyball season, which is great. That’s going to be a big thing to continue to grow the game. In the winter, sales and user-generated content died down. Why? It’s cold obviously. We have these indoor bases. Next winter, it’s going to be a lot better.
Do you guys ever see leagues coming out of this, events or is that too far out of your bandwidth and you’re like, “We’re just sticking to our thing?”
We’ve been trying to push events and tournaments. We had one in San Diego that was huge. We had 50, 60 people come out and some kids were driving three hours to come to play. We get all that from our email list and being able to see where people are located from the sales and target them that way. We had an event scheduled in Alberta, but we had to cancel it because of everything going on in the world. We’re definitely seeing tournaments, leagues. We’re in intramural programs and colleges all across the country. You could sign up for CROSSNET intramurals at a lot of schools, which is cool.
Your brother and your other partner, what’s the leadership role there? Are you focused on, “It’s going to be the three of us for the rest of our lives?” Do you ever see this becoming, “We need some employees?” Where do you see that going?
We hired an events person. There’s one person running all events. Her job is pivoting a little bit as the world is a little bit unstable. We have a full-time order fulfillment person. Our best friend from back home is at our warehouse fulfilling orders. She’s going crazy. We’ll probably have to hire a few more of them too. He’s even over his bandwidth. He’s definitely full-time there. My thoughts sound like freelance compared to full-time. At the moment, it makes more sense to hire freelance and tap them for a few hours when needed. We went nationwide with Academy Sports. There are 250 stores. We’ll be announcing an official partnership soon, but before I announce it, I need a graphic designer to make it. I’d rather pay him 2 hours of work rather than paying him 40 hours a week to sit around. It makes the most sense for my business.
Going back all the way a little bit to the beginning, you guys bootstrapped this thing. Throughout the theme of this conversation, you said, “We don’t pay for this. We freelance here.” The bootstrap mentality, talk a little bit about that because sometimes we see companies start becoming successful and were like, “They must have been on Shark Tank,” or “They must’ve gotten $1 million venture capital of money,” or “They made it rich somehow.” Talk a little bit about you guys from the beginning being entrepreneurs and bootstrapping this thing.
We certainly didn’t have a lot of money. I was over my head in student loan debt and trying to figure it out every day. We looked at each other and like, “Here’s $10,000, $15,000 in our bank between the three of us. Are we willing to risk it?” We put the cash together and it was tough back then. Surrendering $4,000 from your bank account back then was everything. We did that with the expectations we weren’t going to get paid for a long time. It took us eighteen months before we started paying ourselves out. We have $200,000 in the bank account and we’re still not paying ourselves.
We needed to double down on our orders and make sure that the customers were going to be able to get orders six months from now. We were super frugal about it. We didn’t want outside investors who wanted to own 100% of our company. We would buy 50 units, sell them, buy 100. Sell 100, buy 200 and keep going from there. If it meant we were back-ordered for two weeks, so be it. At the end of all this, we still own 100% of our company. We’re super profitable now.
Where are you guys getting inspiration from? Where are you guys learning from? Where are you guys getting some stuff from? Who are you listening to? Are you reading books? Talk a little bit about that.
I try to buy as many business books, read and learn when I can. Double Your Profits by Bob Fifer, I feel like I pitched that a lot, but it taps into let’s be as frugal as possible. Cut everything that we don’t need and it helps big time. Podcasts like How I Built This by Guy Raz is a dope one that I listen to all the time at the gym. Me and Mike, we love reading and listening to podcast and stuff. Greg is definitely more looking at social media.
A few years from now, where is CROSSNET? Where is it at? Is it continuing the distribution model? Is it more these ancillary or supplemental products?Everything you see from your customers is a learning lesson. Click To Tweet
A few years from now, we’re going to be nationwide in every big box store here in America. That’s definitely an achievable goal. We’ll continue to push it. If we get close to that, that’s still better than what I ever dreamed of. Hopefully, we start to get to every gym class in the country. Our game could be a product at a staple for learning volleyball and teaching volleyball for the rest of the time. Volleyball has been in classrooms forever. Why would our product not help that? We’re in 4,000 now. I’d say probably in a few years’ time, being in 15,000 schools would be a cool achievement.
When you think about the user experience, what conversation do you guys have around always maybe reinventing, reimagining? How do you think about that user experience, that customer experience?
That’s one of our biggest challenges. We need to spend more time on this as a company, make sure that when somebody spends $150, that they’re going outside and playing, getting their money’s worth. We hired an email marketing team to keep pushing this messaging like “Here’s how you set up quicker, here’s how you break down quicker. Here’s why you should go out. Here’s the best photo of the week.” We’re always trying to get customers to be able to set up the game quicker, have more fun, go out and motivate them. Also, we’re always looking for feedback. We’re an open book there. If there’s something wrong or broken, let us know because we want to make it better, not only for yourself but for the next people. We’re honest about who we are. We’re three 26, 27-year-old kids who made this game and we want to make it better for you. We can only learn by you telling us.
Let’s say I buy the game, how often are you sending me like, “Check this out. This is a new way we’re playing. This is a new piece of content that came in from somebody?” How often are you staying in touch with those customers?
When you buy, you go into a funnel. You’ll get about 5 to 7 emails over the course of the first 60, 90 days. It was like, “Reminder, here’s how you set up. A reminder of this at school, we have a tournament coming up.” We are starting to embed as we get more user-generated content. That video I got from some family playing inside their living room. The guy was about to smash the ball at his face. That should go out to everybody. That’s the stuff that we need to get better on. It’s growing pains and it’s finding the time to do it. We definitely got to do it.
You’ve probably got a bunch of different customers. You’ve got the customer that buys strictly from your website where you immediately get that information. How do you keep that same customer experience to someone who buys not through you guys?
That’s the toughest part. We’re learning on it and we’re learning a lot. If they buy through Walmart and Target, to be honest, if they go to the retail store, we don’t have their data. It’s up to them to get targeted. We do a good job of somehow if you speak into your phone, you say CROSSNET or four-way volleyball. We hope we get that data somehow. If they don’t buy from our site, it’s tough. I won’t lie.
You have to get them to opt back in somehow. They’ve got to either visit the site.
That’s where the upsells come in of having the longer net, the indoor model. Hopefully, we build a strong enough customer experience off the jump that if they go to retail, buy the game, play it, they’ll come back to our site looking for more or they’ll tag us in their social media posts. We’ll repost them. They’ll come to our Instagram. They’ll click on our site and say, “A new product.”
For us, we’ve struggled with these conversations as well. I can handle this conversation right here because you’ve bought the tickets. You’ve maybe bought them online from me. Our struggle is once that person gives those tickets away to somebody, I’ve lost the entire experience because I don’t know who they gave them to. I can’t communicate with them. I don’t know if they’re coming to the game or not. We’re trying to figure out how we control every part of the customer experience and get them back into our messaging because we know that we can provide an amazing experience if they’re in our funnel, if they’re in our system. Where do you feel the highlight of the customer experience is for you guys?
It’s when they first set it up, bring it to the beach and play for the first time. When you see your friends buying it or you see it on the internet, you’re like, “They’re having a blast, but I’m too nervous to walk up to them and ask them to play.” When they set it up and unravel that four-way net and get their three other friends behind it and they start playing, it’s so much fun. I’m not saying that as a founder, the game is fun to play. You’ve never played on a four-way volleyball net before. You’ve never experienced somebody spiking it in three different directions having to be prepared. Having that first initial game is a blast and you start seeing onlookers.
Talk to me a little bit about what you feel like the best part of the customer experience is. I know for us it’s coming to the game, but for you, is it when they first order and they’re like, “This is awesome.” Is it when they unbox it? Is it when they post on social media? Where do you feel the best part of the customer experience is for you guys?
The best part by far is when they’ve unboxed it and they’ve brought it to the beach or the park. They get their three other friends behind the squares and they start playing because you’ve never had an experience where you’re playing on a four-way net before. You’ve never had to combat spikes from three different angles and worrying about people hitting, spiking, playing it off the net and all these different new creative ways that you’ve never had been exposed to before. That’s the absolute blast and the fun of the game that happens every time you set it up.
Have you guys had people send in their own rules?
All the time. We had people play with three touches. We had people play with two touches. We’ve had people put two players behind each square and make it tight. We see stuff all the time.
We’re always so obsessed with the customer experience. I imagine if this was us thinking about our business and our company, it’s like, “How do we continue to make that first experience, that first game memorable, marketable, fun, remarkable for them?” It’s a powerful thing because there are many businesses out there where you spend $100, $150, $200, whatever it is, and you get that product. It’s a basic box. Maybe there are some instructions there. There’s no memorable first experience so that’s cool. You guys are thinking about, “How do we make this first game experience memorable? Take it to the beach, the park. Take it out, video it, send us that video, send us your own rules.” There’s so much fun that can be had there.
It’s a learning lesson. We keep seeing more and more content. It’s crazy. Even during this quarantine time, we’re getting more UGC than ever because people are forced to be with their family and not do anything else. If they trust that the 2 or 3 other people are not sick, you go in the backyard and they play or they’re playing in their house. It’s cool that people are using our products at the craziest moments to find some joy in their lives. Some lady said, “We played five hours. There’s nothing else to do and this was the best five hours we’ve spent in a long time as a family.”
We talk about the digital world so much. We talk about how things are having to exist on the internet and streaming and all that. People want to be brought together and have fun together and enjoy times together. That’s what you guys are able to do. The thought of someone playing this game for 5 hours is insane. I know you said the retailers and all that, but how can people check out the content, check out the product and all that?
Go to CROSSNETGame.com. That’s for all the product information, learn more about our game. Social media is @CROSSNETGame everywhere and we’re posting content all the time. I’m happy to hook anyone up with a discount.
I’m intrigued to see you on Instagram and check this thing out. Maybe we need a CROSSNET game at the Banana Stadium. I can see people spiking on each other on the third-base side or something, drinking a couple of beers and having a good time watching a Bananas game. Chris, thanks for hanging out with us. I appreciate you coming on.
Thanks for having me.
I’m thankful that Chris came on and we were able to have that conversation because it got us thinking how do we get our fans more engaged and more involved in our content plan? Often in our marketing, social media strategy and things we put out, it’s all about one-way communication. It’s a monologue and not a dialogue. That can be frustrating sometimes, especially I wonder if you are the customer, if you are the fan and you’re seeing these slick promotional videos being put out over and over again, but you want to see people using the product and having fun. Isn’t that what everyone wants to feel? They want to have that validation that they bought the right thing, that they made the right decision.
When it’s the company putting out things, saying, “Look at us, buy our thing. Aren’t we cool?” and not the fans saying, “This product is cool. This business is cool. This experience is cool. Look at me, playing out on the beach with my friends. Look how much more popular it made me.” It struck a chord with me to ensure that we’re focusing on ways to get more user-generated content to put that back out there and that be our marketing plan because again, that’s our customers becoming fans and our fans going out and doing our marketing for us. I’m excited to continue to have that conversation about user-generated content because I think it can lead to some powerful motivation for other people.
- Chris Meade
- Double Your Profits
- How I Built This
- @CROSSNETGame – Facebook
- Instagram – CROSSNET
About Chris Meade
Chris Meade is the co-founder and Chief Revenue Officer of CROSSNET. Chris is responsible for everything sales related and has helped the company generate 2.25 million dollars in 2019, their first full year on the market. Outside of building and optimizing the CROSSNET website and leading the e-mail marketing department, he has developed relationships with renowned retailers such as DICKS, Target, Walmart, and SCHEELS.
Chris received his Bachelor of Arts (BA) in Film, Video and Interactive Media from Quinnipiac University in 2014. Much of his photography and video work can be found throughout the CROSSNET website and social media pages. When not building one of the fastest growing sporting good companies, he is an avid gym goer who also enjoys yoga, basketball, and snowboarding.
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